Is Jesus A Man, An Archangel, Or God Himself? Part 2

Nov 19, 2011 by

The following is a rebuttal by Timothy Johnson regarding our last spiritual fencing match.

My comments are stated in italics while his are in bold. Enjoy!

Is Jesus equal to Jehovah… What was Preached

I tried arguing form a logical point of view that the Jesus Christ is Jehovah God’s Son and therefore Jesus is second to God.

And you did an outstanding job of it Timothy! I very much respect your ability to quote scripture.

Secondly, Jesus was not immortal before his death, when he existed as an Archangel

Show me ONE scripture in the bible that openly states that Jesus was an archangel and I’ll send you $50,000.00.

because an indestructible life-force is indestructible; meaning it cannot be destroyed and far less die.

True! I believe that the only thing that died when Jesus was executed was His human body. Not anything else. This is further borne out by the scripture that I quoted earlier in our exchange and that you seem to have ignored namely:

1 Peter 3:19 

“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.” 

What part about “being made alive in the Spirit” do you not understand? He was put to death in the body. His spirit was allowed to go and make proclamation to the imprisoned spirits as the scripture plainly states.

When someone dies and some part of them lives on that is the definition of immortality by the way.

Finally, Jesus by coming and die for mankind thus proving his obedience  to God was granted not only Immortality but also the ability to give life (and create); thus becoming a full God in all sense but “a god” because he was given this power and all authority from the Father.

WHAT?

Timothy, if you aren’t going to pay attention and address the scriptures that I painstakingly laid out for you to read then you aren’t giving me the respect of an opponent. You’re obviously ignoring the points that I’ve made up until now and only paying attention to your own.

I addressed each and every single point that you made in your original letter. Yet you have ignored every single point that I made. That is simply bad form old boy! You must address the valid arguments that I’ve given you otherwise you’re just talking to hear yourself talk.

You wrote:

“Jesus…was granted not only Immortality but also the ability to give life (and create);”

Christ already had the ability to give life and create.

John 1:3 (AGAIN)

 All things came into existence through him and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” – John 1:3 New World Translation

Timothy, what part of ALL THINGS do you not understand? Jesus WAS the creator!

When Jesus ascended to the heavens He received what was rightfully His again. Notice the last segment of this scripture that you quoted in our last exchange and explain why you say that Jesus didn’t have the same glory before He descended from heaven:

John 17:1-5 — Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

(I did not cite any scriptures because you simple do not believe this…. YOU continue to state that Jesus is equal to God and is God and is another state in which God exist making him a Trinity).

Yes I do. You are correct in your statement here.

Now for my final argument (hopefully)… I will cite scriptures mainly from what the early Christians taught about Jehovah and Jesus; and give my analysis on them.

 Matthew 28:18 — And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth

Yes? And I agree 100%

Acts 2:32-36 — This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ Therefore let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom YOU impaled.”

I don’t see anything here that would indicate that Jesus is anything other than God the Son.

Acts 5:29-32 — “We must obey God as ruler rather than men. The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom YOU slew, hanging him upon a stake. God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”

Timothy: How can the Holy Spirit witness anything unless the Holy Spirit is a person? If the Holy Spirit is simply an unintelligent active force then how can it bear witness to ANYTHING?

Again there is nothing here to indicate that Jesus isn’t equally God and deserving of our worship.

Ephesians 1:19-23 — It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and

every name named,

Hmmm. Jehovah is named in the Old Testament. Would Jesus Christ be above Jehovah since He has been named?

not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. He also subjected all things under his feet, and made him head over all things to the congregation, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

There’s that “fullness” word again. Did you even read my response to your original argument?

If Jesus received from God the promised holy spirit and sits at the right and of God… thus only a separate person can receive some thing and hold a position of authority in relation to someone else. Meaning you simply cannot make yourself a king in Heaven if it was given to you. Meaning if God gave Jesus all authority did God step down form is throne. No! However, God has taken a vacation but left his Son in control, but God still knows what is happening. In fact Jesus is waiting on a message from Jehovah God to destroy Satan’s wicked world.

God is on vacation? Are you KIDDING ME?

Just what is the Watchtower society teaching these days?

So does Jehovah send Jesus a text message, fax or email perhaps?

I’m sorry but your depiction of Jehovah being on vacation and sending messages to Jesus on what to do and when to do it is simply too hysterically funny for me not to enjoy. You make it sound like Jehovah is sunning Himself in the Bahamas and calling Jesus to check in! Do you realize how ridiculous your imaginings and those of the Watchtower really are?

Romans 15:5, 6 — Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant YOU to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And yes Jesus does glorify the Father…however the Father also glorifies Jesus! Re-read the scripture above at John 17:1-5 and tell me I’m wrong.

Romans 16:27 — …to God, wise alone, be the glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

 Amen! Nothing here Timothy to make anyone conclude that Jesus isn’t God.

2 Corinthians 11:31 — The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, even the One who is to be praised forever, knows I am not lying.

 Absolutely. I agree 100%.

2 Corinthians 13:3, 4 — since YOU are seeking a proof of Christ speaking in me, [Christ] who is not weak toward YOU but is powerful among YOU. 4 True, indeed, he was impaled owing to weakness, but he is alive owing to God’s power.

Absolutely and being God He is alive!

Revelations 21:22-23 — And I did not see a temple in it, for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb

Again amen! Nothing here to make anyone conclude that Jesus isn’t God. 

Revelations 22:3 — And no more will there be any curse. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in [the city]

Same throne. Two different persons? Are you kidding me that you don’t see this?

The early Christians taught that Jehovah God was Jesus Christ father and not that God and the Son are equal. They also spoke of God alone being wise thus showing the one is greater than the other thus separate persons. Finally, when John received the visions of heaven note that he saw God and the Lamb and two thrones God’s and the Lamb’s thus if God wanted to established he was Three (3) in one John would of seen or wrote a vision of a Trinity like being in heaven.

You’re seeing things that aren’t there Timothy. There is only one throne. Not two! The Watchtower has deceived you man.

Here’s a similar statement:

“the house of Doug and of his wife.” – This is ONE house not two.

“the dog of Doug and of his daughter.” – This is ONE dog not two.

“the conversation of Doug and of his friend Timothy.” This is ONE conversation not two.

You really need to examine that scripture more closely. You’ve been looking at the pictures from the Watchtower with the “big throne” and the “little throne” next to it for far too long. It has made you blind to the scriptures.   

Philippians 2:5-11 — Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. – New World Translation

Again we are running into a Watchtower translation of a key scripture that twists the entirety of the verse into something that it isn’t. I’m going to give you the instances of this scripture from a variety of versions and translations:

5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped,
– American Standard Version

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,6who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, – 21st Century King James Version

5Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility: 6Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [b]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped [c]or retained, – Amplified Bible

5 Adopt the attitude that was in Christ Jesus: 6Though he was in the form of God, he did not consider being equal with God something to exploit. – Common English Bible

5and think the same way that Christ Jesus thought: [a]6Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain [b] equal with God. – Contemporary English Version

5For let this mind be in you which [was] also in Christ Jesus; 6who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; – Darby Translation

5 In your life together, think the way Christ Jesus thought.  6 He was like God in every way,
   but he did not think that his being equal with God was something to use for his own benefit.   Easy To Read Version

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a]6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, – English Standard Version

5 The attitude you should have is the one that Christ Jesus had: 6 He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to remain[a] equal with God.– The Good News Translation

Timothy, what this scripture REALLY states is that Jesus, while fully equal to God the Father didn’t stubbornly hold on to that equality but willingly gave it up to come to earth to live and die according to the will of the Father. This is what this scripture says and what it means. Notice that this scripture was being used to counsel us in our relationships with each other! Jesus taught us not to “Lord it over” each other. Imagine the humility that it took for Jesus to allow Himself, while existing in the form of God and being fully equal to the Father, to bow to His request to leave His glory in heaven to come to earth as a lowly human!

Timothy, are you beginning to see why the New World Translation was written? It takes a plain and easy to understand scripture like this one and completely perverts it. There is not ONE bible version out there that translates this key scripture the way the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society does! It is painfully obvious for anyone who understands logic and human nature to see that the Watchtower deliberately altered this scripture because to do otherwise would be to admit that Jesus is equal to God the Father. Of course if they admitted that then their whole “house of cards” would come tumbling down. Their entire theology is based upon subverting Jesus’ true place in heaven and in so doing they are able to limit His power in your life and the lives of other Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is the calling card of many manipulative and destructive cults. They subvert Jesus’ true place in heaven in order to assume that role themselves. By limiting Christ they are able to direct the loyalty, faith, and worship of their flock to themselves rather than to Christ.

In concluding, I chose this scripture as my main point of argument because it plainly states Jesus existed in God’s form…but was not equal to God (even if he was.. This again will mean he is a separate person). Also, he was obedient and was exalted by God to a superior position. All this was done that all should know that Jesus is the means by which God has chosen to glorify himself.

The witness of two or three persons stands… and not the witness of one thus if God is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit… the witness stands in that of God being glorified through the Son and Holy Spirit…However, these 3 must be separate beings for the above to be true.

Because, if Water is at times ICE or GAS or Liquid…

It can only exist in either of these states at one time… and not all together in one.

Have you ever put ice in your water Timothy? You have water, (in the cup) you have ice (in the cup and in the water), and you have vapor because although unseen…you can see the droplets forming on the outside of the cup as the vapor exudes over the lip and down the sides of the cup to form a “water ring” underneath. The vapor not only exists in its own form but it also leaves “the cup” and goes elsewhere. All three states exist at the same time and can exist together or apart.

You say that God can’t physically co-exist in three personages or in three states and yet I have shown you just one instance in the physical world where this happens.

You really do need to think about your arguments more often Timothy. You’re determined…that much is true but your arguments lack logic in certain areas such as the above statement.

Therefore, even if they are of the same properties H2O, the molecular structure of each state varies thus making one stronger than the other (something like Diamonds and Pencils) and different.  For example, Ice Water, Liquid Water and Gas Water are all water but different, thus God could certainly become the Son, or the Holy Spirit….but what happens to the pervious state he was in ?…. It no longer exists and if the three actually exist then they must be separate.

Again as with the ice in the water in the cup your argument simply doesn’t hold any water.

Okay I had to say it. Please excuse yet another humorous jab at you sir.  

P.S

True, some are preaching the Christ through envy and rivalry, but others also through goodwill. The latter are publicizing the Christ out of love, for they know I am set here for the defense of the good news; but the former do it out of contentiousness, not with a pure motive, for they are supposing to stir up tribulation [for me] in my [prison] bonds. What then? [Nothing,] except that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being publicized, and in this I rejoice. In fact, I will also keep on rejoicing, for I know this will result in my salvation…. I shall not be ashamed in any respect, but that in all freeness of speech Christ will, as always before, so now be magnified….. (Philippians 1:15-20)

Christ is being publicized? The only word I ever hear Jehovah’s Witnesses say is “Jehovah” most of the time. I rarely ever hear them talk about Jesus unless I bring Him up.

Here’s a simple task that I will give you. You sir are on your honor here. I’m going to trust you to do this honestly and remember: “Liars will not inherit the kingdom!”

Next time you attend a meeting I want you to count how many times Jehovah is mentioned in the presentations and also how many times Jesus Christ is mentioned. The two times during the opening and closing prayer don’t count. I want you to get back to me with your results and I will publish them on my blog. I will go out on a limb here and say that the mention of Jehovah versus Jesus is going to be at least 90/10 and quite possibly 95/5 in favor of Jehovah and yet “the name that is above every other name” is that of Jesus Christ and not “Jehovah”!

I hope that in your efforts to draw persons away from false religions and Jehovah’s Witnesses you are drawing them to accomplish the work that is set before all follows of Christ which is to preach the Good News about Christ and warn people of Armageddon. However, you actually do not speak out to warn the wicked one from his way, he himself as a wicked one will die in his own error, but his blood I shall ask back at your own hand. (Ezekiel 33:7-9)

I believe that the bible teaches all of us that if we have faith in Jesus Christ that we will never die.

John 11:23-26 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Finally, I have tried many times to assimilate Jesus is God in the flesh but it’s impossible because my knowledge of who Jehovah God truly is and who the Son truly is, conflicts with the simple fact that a God cannot be destroyed far less stop existing for a moment (Luke 10:22).

And you are correct Timothy! The human body of Jesus died. The spiritual body of Christ lived on. He was and is indestructible as 1st Peter 3:19 states.

If the very being that holds the universe together stops existing then all things and life will stop existing except those having independent life meaning immortality or Godlikeness.

It is inconceivable for me to think that God could ever stop existing and therefore I won’t address this speculation.

Therefore such beings cannot be contained in the flesh because the flesh is corruptible… all human cells must die for new ones to grow even though we have life within us and that is why we must continually depend on God Spirit to live forever (Genesis 6:3). However, only one other being was granted this ability to create and give life, Jesus (John 5:26)… and yet he is doing his Fathers will with that power and not his own things. Thus proving a universal argument proposed by Satan which is all creature serve God selfishly meaning we have no choice… and if given the opportunity we will turn on God… especially humans. Now if God came as a human (as Jesus) to prove that he could remain faithful to God (himself) the outcome would not make sense because God is proving a point to himself.

Just because you can’t wrap your mind around the concept doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Again, the bible is very clear that Jesus came to earth because God the Father wanted Him to.

However, this is truth… Jehovah God has faith in his own creation namely man and his Son…so much faith that he gave those (144,000 humans) and Jesus immortality, meaning God cannot destroy them if they decided to turn on God in the future. And if this happens this will mean Evil will exist forever. However, Jesus faithfulness granted him the glory and honor to undo his

brother Satan

This is yet another sick and twisted teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They teach that Jesus’ brother is Satan. This is a most perverted teaching which is shared with the other mind control religions and yet they swallow it whole, hook, line and sinker. So if Jesus is God’s Son then logic would dictate (assuming you are correct) that Satan is also God’s son? So now He has TWO sons? Come on Timothy. Do you really believe that or are you just regurgitating the drivel that the Watchtower has given you as “meat in due season”?

6000 years of wickedness in only 1000 years. Yes imagine this; that you love working for your Boss and he offers You the chance to run the largest company in the world for a few years, would that not be a grand honor. Of course, however one day you would have to give control back to your boss and that is an honor as well.

Again I can’t even begin to address this analogy. So does Jesus get vacation pay? How about health care or stock options?  

Timothy you are taking a most holy and reverent relationship between Jesus and His Father and comparing it to an employee / employer relationship. Are you kidding me? Comparing the closeness and love that Jesus has for His Father to that is a huge slap in the face to Him and His Father! Would you die on the cross for your employer there Timothy? I think not. Jesus did everything His Father required of Him perfectly. Not because of some payoff, not because of some reward that He was going to get, not for “stock options”, but because He loved His Father more than Himself! He also loved mankind more than Himself!

Do you really get the deeper meaning of the tremendous sacrifice that God made on our behalf? God lived fully in His Son and allowed Him to die a horribly painful death. A disgraceful death. A death that none of us would inflict on our worst criminals much less someone utterly blameless as Jesus Christ! God loved us so much that HE died for us in the body of Jesus Christ. Do you get the immense gravity of that? God was the One who had been hurt by man’s failure to maintain perfection. God was the One who deserved an apology for US! Yet He is so loving and so merciful and so selfless that He chose to come to earth and die in our places. 

Do you understand what that meant and what that took? Pure love. That is what it took Timothy. Love beyond anything we can possibly imagine.

Not as you say, some employer telling Jesus:

“Okay Jesus time for you to punch in and go to earth. We need for you to die for mankind and when you get back? A big bonus will be waiting for you.”

THERE WAS NOTHING IN IT FOR JESUS OTHER THAN SAVING US AND DOING HIS FATHER’S WILL NOT FOR PERSONAL GAIN BUT BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS FATHER AND HE LOVED US.

Jesus set the example for us in how to live our lives my brother! He set the standard. There is simply no higher and nobler reason for living and dying than pure selfless love for others.

Timothy this is the God that I serve!

 The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ [be] with the spirit YOU [show]. – Philippians 4:23

Thanks for the return email Timothy. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Yours in Christ,

Doug Shields
www.thewatchtowerfiles.com

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